Any advice on knives?
I'm starting to do some research on a knife set to get my father for Christmas. I've been cooking meals for us when I'm visiting, and have realized that he owns a ton of random kitchen knives, but I can only really stand to use one of them (the rest are pretty poorly made and can't cut straight at all).
So I'm looking for a basic starter set, perhaps something around the order of $100 (unfortunately, I'm not in a position to shell out the dough for the lovely Shuns that Woot offers from time to time). Currently I'm looking at a Wusthof set on Amazon ( http://www.amazon.com/Wusthof-1700-Gourmet-7-Piece-Knife/dp/B00005MEGY/ref=sr_1_14?s=home-garden&ie=UTF8&qid=1287175581&sr=1-14 ), which is nice because it comes with a block, which he doesn't have, and it doesn't come with steak knives, which he doesn't need.
Any comments or suggestions would be greatly appreciated!
This thread might help you. We love our knives so I am pretty sure lots of folks will share
The Shun knives regularly on Woot are very good. If you buy a German brand knife, make sure you get a knife made in Germany (or at least made in Europe) and not their lower quality knife ranges.
Ceramic knives are nifty, but they can shatter if dropped, so are probably not as useful as traditional steel knives.
If a knife is very cheap it is pretty much guaranteed to be useless, a single $50 chef knife is much better than a $50 set of knives of dubious quality.
I would tell you the same thing as I said here: http://deals.woot.com/deals/details/8cf1681d-1bfa-4b60-8872-e09ce780cbf2/j-a-henckels-cutlery-eversharp-12-piece-set#19
There really isn't a perfect knife to recommend and their isn't a perfect knife out there, each have there pros and cons.
The best thing you can do is go to a store that lets you play with the knives to find one you feel is comfortable in your hand and cuts reasonably well. I know a Sur La Table lets you test knives that they sell.
The two knife brands we use the most are R.H. Forschner(Victorinox) and Henckels knives(Made in Sollingen, Germany). The handles are simple and comfortable and the knives are easy to care for. They just require simple honing every so often. End Plug...
A little education on metal:
Everything knife alloy has its ups and downs:
~High Carbon Steel: These knives have a high Rockwell hardness in comparison to stainless knives. They hold their edge far longer than stainless. Their downside is that unless properly cleaned, stored and oiled, the knives will rust over time.
~Stainless Steel Alloys: Cheaper knives are made with 300 series alloys. They look nice but are very soft. These are meant only for table knives and are meant to stand up to years of repetitive cutting. The exchange is chemical resistance for hardness.
The most common kitchen knife alloys are 440A, 440B, and 440C. C is harder than B, B is harder than A. A and C are identical chemically but the metal in the C alloy has cryogenic step added in the alloying process where the finished metal is bathed in liquid nitrogen. This locks the crystal structure of the metal into a certain shape, boosting hardness. Though B is harder than A, A has a higher acid resistance.
~Shun Knives and VG-10: Shun knives are layered. They are 440A stainless on the outside but the cutting edge is VG-10 carbon steel. VG-10 is NOT stainless. It has a high chrome content, but zero nickel, with vanadium added to the alloy. The result is a very hard metal that will bend not break under high stress. Abuse your Shun(acidic conditions should do the trick) and you will rust your blade.
~Ceramic Knives: Knives that are ceramic are made from a fused ceramic powder. The hardness is unsurpassed by steel, never need sharpening, only surpassed by diamond coated specialty blades or specialty carbide blades(neither of these are made into kitchen knives). Their downside? They break like a china plate if you drop them.
~Damascus Steel: Damascus steel is a very old steel alloy, that combined the steel making process, with natural impurities in the local iron ore. I cannot remember where Damascus originates from. The steel is incredibly strong and to this day is only replicated by look.
Damascus steel is known for black banding across finished products containing the alloy. This is from the carbon impurities that in the metal separated during cooling and hammering process. The banding forms a mesh, binding the layers of steel. This is what gives the steel its strength and flexibility without yielding. Today this is imitated by forcing a black oxide layer to grow on the steel.
This is probably more than you will ever need to know.
Check this set out at Amazon.com:
It's in your price range and has lots of very positive reviews.
Sure, it isn't Henkels or Shun, but for the price it fits your needs. I really can't espouse spending $1000 on knives for someone looking for a "starter" or "basic" set. Those knives are for professionals and poseurs.
my fiance is neither a pro nor a poser... however a good knife "set" is probably a lot different from what most people consider a set.
She has a shun chef's knife (they come in different lengths to suit your hand size and needs) , and uses it to the exclusion of nearly everything else - with the only other knives in her collection being a boning knife for fish, and a larger generic chef's knife that she uses as a cleaver for getting through bones.
She's had in the past, whole sets that include santokus, ceramic knives, "ever sharp" knives (hint - there's no such thing, unless the ever "sharp" is dull to begin with)
aside from the occasional use boning and cleaving knives - for 100.00 you can literally buy 1 great knife that will do everything you want it to, once you become accustomed to handling it. We've since given the other knives she doesn't use to relatives. She found herself reaching past all of the specialty knives for the shun, every time.
@durkzilla: Ooo, that definitely looks like a possibility. The reviews are certainly positive, for a brand I've not heard of before (although, I'm not a huge kitchen knife buff).
I'm also checking out some non-set Victorinox Forschner knives, as suggested by @dcalotta in the deal thread he/she directed me to. My dad was raised in Switzerland, so he sometimes has an affinity for Swiss-made stuff. :)
And thank you for your discourse, @catbertthegreat! I never really thought to pay attention to the type of metal - I had no idea it made such a difference in the care and upkeep of the knives. Also, I am really intrigued by the idea of ceramic knives, but know that they wouldn't last long at this house.
@goatcrapp: Wow, that must be some knife. I will definitely look into that, but I'm just so used to using certain knife sizes/types for certain jobs! It would be an adjustment, for sure. :) Maybe worth it, though, from all the good things I hear about those Shuns...
@kylieziegler: Here is a great tip with ceramic knives. They often show up at discount stores like Home Goods or the kitchen stores in Outlet malls. They generally are always a small or medium size santoku knives, for around $15.00. It is a great way to see if they are something you might want to invest in.
@kylieziegler - it really is a great knife.. before i knew any better i was a "anything that cuts" kind of guy.. still am - not fussy.. but there's still something special about being able to cut paper thin slices of a roast, and i'll probably never use a serrated blade for meat again.
and this isn't something specific to shun.. that happened to be her choice - but any of the top knife makers will have a GREAT knife... forschner is an absolutely wonderful brand as well - so if your dad has a natural tendency toward swiss stuff, it might be something he'd be more likely to reach for.
After having been down the road of endless money being spent on various specialty knives.. its refreshing.
Just remember - no dishwashers for a great knife, and make sure you're getting a knife made in the company's country of origin/ mother factory - not the lower end ones that are outsourced using old cnc and die-molds.
@catbertthegreat: I am all over that. I will keep an eye out, thanks!
@goatcrapp: I am really starting to get jealous now. I've been making a lot of Asian food lately, and I would loooove to cut super-thin slices of meat. I mean, spending $100 on one knife is totally against my frugal nature... but it is for a gift, so maybe that tips the scales...
@kylieziegler: Surprisingly no one has offered this advice: Knives need to be sharp to be utilized to their fullest potential. Also, knives are sharp! Be careful. Lastly, do not insert knives into others.
Hope it helps. :)
Boker knives carry some very nice kitchen products in Damascus steel as well as stainless and are of very fine quality.
@xarous: Shoot, I've been doing it wrong! Thanks for the tips. :)
@joebare: Ohhh my goodness, those Damascus steel blades are so pretty!
I have thing for Global knives. I don't know much about the high-end knives, because the one brand that I only ever tried with a knife that is 100+ dollars is Global.
I have found no reason to try any other though. Lightweight, but with enough weight to feel right, easy to keep sharp, and shiny. :D
Give them a look. I had a fixation on them being the first company I'd get a chef's knife from after reading Kitchen Confidential many years ago. I put a lot of trust in Anthony Bourdain...
A lot of people say that you shouldn't run with knives, my tip for you is that you should learn to juggle them with enough proficiency that it no longer matters whether you are standing still or doing the one hundred meter hurdles while you chop your vegetables.
Sorry, I've been pre-occupied outside of deals lately, or I would have responded sooner. First, I highly recommend you look at the threads @hobbit and @dcalotta referenced.
That said, the main point mentioned there but not here is that you're often better off buying a single good knife rather than a knife set. There are two complementary reasons: (1) for most cooking, you'll be using a chef's knife (or it's Japanese equivalents); (2) a good knife is sometimes cheaper and definitely better than a set. That said, it may be odd to gift a single knife.
I'm a fan of non-branded, Japanese knives (Shun's have an unnecessary brand-name mark-up). That said, Chicago Cutlery is a fine starter brand, particularly where price is a concern. Note, per @catbertthegreat's comments, higher-end knives like Wusthof, Henckels, and Shuns are typically the ones that require more (or different) care than most households are used to giving their knives.
I'm going to agree with those who say you're better off with one or two good knives than a full set of cheap knives. Generally speaking, a kitchen needs three knives: a small (paring) knife, a large (chef's) knife and a serrated (bread) knife. Remember, there is no single "best" knife.
Things to look for:
- comfort
- steel characteristics
- cost
- blade profile
A knife that is uncomfortable to hold is unsafe and will not get used.
The type of steel that is used in a knife can make a huge difference in how sharp the knife gets and how sharp it stays. Most home cooks are better off with a high hardness, stainless steel blade.
Knives have different blade shapes. Pick the one that feels best for the way you cut.
My experience is that Shuns are not worth the money if you are paying retail, but at Woot-esque prices are worthwhile. Victorinox makes quality Western-style blades at very good prices and regularly gets endorsed by America's Test Kitchen as a best value product. Of the brands I've used, I like my Misono gyuto the best, but MAC makes great knives at (relatively) reasonable prices. I'm not a big fan of Wusthof or Zwilling, but the German knifemakers have many fans who love the sturdy, hefty blades.
Just food for thought, if you are going to buy a single knife or two, here is a great block that will hold any knife:
It's basically a bunch of plastic rids that hold the knives in place. My friends have it in their kitchen, and love it! And the insides are dishwasher safe in case you do need to wash it.
I am not a fan of knife "sets" in general. I find you can usually get better deals with just purchasing the knives you need a la carte. A Chef's knife, a paring knife, and a slicer will take care of 99% of your needs.
Or you could always buy him 1 shun knife at a time?
@kylieziegler: I actually have Chicago brand knives. I like them. I prefer knives I can sharpen. If someone gave me a single knife of the "Shun" variety, I would be disappointed. Yes, that's what I said. It takes WAY too much special care, and is so expensive. I have a smaller set, and it doesn't have a fancy built in knife sharpener (which I wouldn't use, anyway). It does have a nice sharpener, though.
http://www.amazon.com/Chicago-Cutlery-Centurion-8-Inch-Sharpening/dp/B00091SDO0/ref=pd_sim_k_19
I prefer this kind. I can put an edge on a blade that will allow me to slice very thin tomatoes. I'll bet your father will be a lot happier with a set than with a knife that has to be babied. Fooey on Shun knives, that's what I say.
As a preface, this is intended to be informational not nit-picky.
The "sharpening steel" included in the second Chicago Cutlery set is used to hone blades, i.e., make them straight, not make them sharp. The term sharpening steel is commonly used, but is a simple misnomer. The sharpener in the block may actually be a real sharpener, or might just hone your blade as well -- I can't tell from the description/image.
That said, typically you'll want to hone your knives but not sharpen them. You can usually get your knives sharpened professionally for about $5 and would only need to do it every year or two. Honing, you would do more often.
You can (and should) hone your Shuns/Wusthofs/Henckels, etc. as well as have them sharpened periodically. In fact, the benefit of those knives is typically that they maintain an edge longer, so you won't have to sharpen them as much (honing is just a good habit).
(con't)
(con't)
The detriment, as @catbertthegreat covered very well, but I'll paraphrase, is that you really don't want to use them in a dishwasher or leave them wet for long periods of time. Basically, they rust.
As I've said, I think Chicago Cutlery is a fine brand and may be appropriate for your needs. I know people who have become into knives who start with Chicago Cutlery and they actually learned to sharpen (not hone) using those knives. As mentioned, they had to do it far more often due to the softer material, but it was inexpensive practice and more frequent -- which is good for learning at least!
Note: I'm not saying you should learn to sharpen your knives, I'm just reaffirming Chicago Cutlery as a brand. If you do, learn to use a sharpening stone, not one of those weird v-shaped sharpeners or whatever's in that first block (honestly, it freaks me out). You should hone your knives though.
Here's a great article on the different types of kitchen knives, and which will be most useful if you're only buying 1, buying 2 or 3, etc. I think there's an article somewhere on that site rating chef's knives, as well.
http://www.cookingforengineers.com/article/39/Kitchen-Knives
As for myself, I had been using the Forschner Victorinox Fibrox chef's knife - cheap, but sharp as a razor and very cheap, until I found an old Chinese cleaver, and now I've been using that for absolutely everything.
@porschefanatic21: That is a pretty nice little article... it seems to agree with and further explain what a lot of Wooters have been saying in these threads! I am thinking that 3 basic Forschner Victorinox knives and a Kapoosh ( as suggested by @mrmucox ) might be the way to go. The knives just have awesome reviews on Amazon.
I'm starting to get some ideas for some investments of my own, in the farther-away future, too... Those Damascus steel knives are so, so pretty!
My family has a bunch of Cutco items, and they are flat out amazing.
We saw them at a fair, and got a rep to come to our house with a few of the items for a showing, and we were amazed.
The knifes cut through almost anything like butter, they have a corkscrew that our rep took the edging off a penny(idk why he did this, but it was cool as hell), and the ice cream scooper is so amazing, it melted an ice cube by just chilling.
Everyone of the items from cutco we have purchased has been worth it.
Best of all, they sharpen for free, for ever.
When we go on vacation, we ship them over there, and they are back when we get back, usually 5 - 8 days later.
I have Tupperware Chef Series and Cutco-Love both
My advise to get Cutco join the company get the selling kit(sell anything you do not want on Ebay/Amazon to pay for the stuff you want to keep-LOL),or buy the knives on Ebay. Thier sissors are the best cut through anything and last forever!
Tupperware Chef Series are Great knives to again buy them on eBay/Amazon where they are at least reasonable-They also have a great ice cream scoop and a really good Corkscrew too
Tupperware had some really great paring knives in protectors that are no longer in the catalog-stay sharp in the drawer and not getting nicked from them when you reach in drawer-Ebay/Amazon is about the only place you can get them to-
Here's a nice set of Henckels on Amazon around your price range:
http://amzn.com/B002SR0SW8
I would recommend getting a set that includes a Santoku knife, it is probably the knife we use most in our kitchen.
You really need only 4 knives -a chef, a paring, a boning, and a serrated. Go and spend the money. JA Henkels professioinal 4 star or equivalent - about 300 for the set on sale. They will last you a lifetime. Forget the starter set idea. Buy them once and buy them correctly. Stay away from non-US steel(except for Japan or Germany). Sorry, the chinese do not make good steel, no matter the rating. They lie. You get what you pay for. Knives are not any different.
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