questionsdear woot, can we please get the top tab back?

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Thank You!

Someone does not understand "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

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Where can I sign the petition?

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@conanthelibrarian - Note: I would still like to see the top tab brought back however here is a temporary (hopefully) solution.

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Anybody else find it ironic that the most unpopular thing on woot right now is the popular tab?

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Now we have really popular deals being pushed down. We have expired deals on the popular page.
At this time I see 2 deals "made popular 2 hours ago" that are expired.

Is this really what you intended?

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Thank you for your input.
We are reviewing the expired deals issue.

All told.

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I like it better. This way, I can see good deals added mid-day not just the deals that have been getting voted-up all day. It's too easy to pad your rank if you just go through and up vote the top deals because you know that's what everyone else is doing. Having just popular and fresh tabs forces the community to actually put some thought into their votes.

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Agreed. Please bring back thecTOP tab.

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IMO, there's something really wrong w/a deal posted 8 hours ago that went "Popular" one hour ago. With 2 (two) up-votes. http://deals.woot.com/deals/details/f6389d4c-7330-4cc3-b450-5b68edd5ce21/dennis-rodman-ambassador-to-north-korea-t-shirt-deal#0

Does that make sense to anyone? If it does make sense to you, please explain it to me. I find it absurd, and would really like to understand.

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@bsmith1: It's my understanding that your rank/rep is only affected in a positive manner if you are among the 1st 10 to up-vote. Therefore, random up-voting (or 'padding' as you call it) on deals that have already accrued large amounts of votes will not impact anything. Plus, I think many people only vote up deals that really consider good ones. At least I did.

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I'm no programmer but wouldn't it be fairly simple to have multiple tabs. Popular, Top, Fresh, User. I say the more tabs the merrier

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@gideonfrost: Agreed, then we could have the "Speakeasy" tab that @lavikinga suggested :-)

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@bsmith1: In a way, you have it a bit backwards. If you are among the very first to vote on a brand new FRESH deal and others pile on after you, you used to get a pat on the head reputation wise. It's how one scored Top Voter.

The FRESH tab is/was the fastest way to see up and coming deals. It's my go-to tab when I want to look & vote on deals. Once something has already gone to the popular page, it doesn't do your reputation any great shakes to vote on it.

@Shrdlu: am I off base in my memory about this? I seem to remember it was one of the easiest ways to keep ourselves in the black.

EDIT--DOH! @gmwhit: I see now you've already mentioned it. :) And using less words, too.

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@lavikinga: You're not entirely wrong, but here it is, from vast experimentation and direct answers.

For purposes of top voters, and for reputation, voting on something that is already popular, or is sponsored, gets you nothing. Zero. Zilch. Nada.

For purposes of the top voter, the first person not the poster to vote on a deal gets some sort of magic credit which increases as long as other people vote, for a 24 hour clock that begins at midnight TX. It's easily gamed, although it's the least interesting of the leaderboard entries. To me, top deal hunter, and top overall, are the best. Questions is too easily gamed, also.

Voting contributes to your reputation, and being first to vote on something that later goes to popular is the very best. Voting on comments isn't ranked in the same way (far as I know), but still contributes (both to the voter, and to the person being voted on).

There's more, of course, but that's a start.

Everything old is new again...

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@gmwhit: With respect to deals going popular; the rules used to be as follows:

Speed of accrual of votes (i.e. 4 votes in two minutes counts for far more than 20 votes in four hours).
Number of views (i.e. number of people who actually READ the deal/question)
Number of clickthroughs (i.e. number of people who click on the link in the deal to go to the site and look at it; nothing comparable to this for questions)
Certain tags (i.e. #free, #sexy, #lingerie, all have limiting factors)

There's also activity around a deal. This one's a bit complicated, so follow along, please. Let's say there are three deals. If numbers 1 and 3 receive very little activity, the activity (see above) for deal 2 can be very light, where if all of them receive some activity, the bar for deal 2 is set much higher. I know that's complicated, and the window is greater than 3. It may be some sort of curve, where distance is significant.

Enough of that.

Everything old is new again...

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@shrdlu: You saw the shrdlu signal mighty darned fast! Thanks.

(BTW, never did follow through with my evil plan, but did toy with the idea of a scorched earth campaign to root out some evil doings I've gotten wind of around here.)

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I hated the top tab. If I could have defaulted to the popular tab I would have in a heartbeat. Thanks for making that the default again, woot!

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@shawnmiller: You said, "I based it off some math from..." Are you saying that YOU developed the rep/deals/questions, etc. algorithms? O.O

Oh, okay.

O.O

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@shawnmiller: Howdy there. Nice to see that you're still following along on the discussions of your work.

Any explanation as to why so much data is now inaccessible? It makes me sad to have comments and voting history only go back one year. For one thing, there's no easy way to point back to some of the troublemakers from the past (outside of memory scraping, which gets more painful every year). I can see all the way back as to questions I've asked, but comments and voting history are just cut off.

They disappeared sometime around the last big database issue, as far as i can tell, and it seems like it would just be a matter of rebuilding things. All the items are still there, just the pointers to them are gone. I haz a sad. All TheFlounder's jokes are lost to me, and I don't remember what questions they were on. Someone was sad, and I was cheering them up. Even google doesn't find them. :-(

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@shrdlu: Sadly, I was unable to 'follow along.' My attention span...blah, blah...age..blah, blah... Sorry.

What I said above, "IMO, there's something really wrong w/a deal posted 8 hours ago that went "Popular" one hour ago. With 2 (two) up-votes" still doesn't make sense to me. No matter how it's explained. It's nonsense. To me.

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@shawnmiller: Interesting that you used Tukey's work. I'd thought it reminded me of the entropy from Shannon (another useful filter in imaging, btw). Math is good. I like it.

Too bad you came of age after the Pixar (it used to be hardware, before it went to software). You'd have liked it. FFTs in real time (in 1988).

Thanks for the answer. Interesting, as always.

[Edit] @gmwhit: Yes, Shawn originally created the platform that is Deals. It's still his baby, far as I know.

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@shrdlu: "it seems like it would just be a matter of rebuilding things"

You're absolutely right. Google has been doing a pretty good job helping us out and we've been watching to see how deep their sitemap goes. But I think it's time for us to help it out a little bit. I'll see if the team can make sure we index the rest of the really old data next week.

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And for everyone who needs it, here's one of my very favorite questions, with all those lovely jokes from @theflounder right smack in the middle of them (I finally remembered who'd asked the question).

http://deals.woot.com/questions/details/b5b9fa24-1571-4511-a8ee-130c3af7372c/negative-nancys

[Edit] @shawnmiller, I just saw your comment. Thank you very VERY much for this. At least I found the jokes. Hooray! :-D

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@gmwhit: I'd have to dive deeper to be sure, but I bet the deal you're questioning had lots of up votes on the fresh tab, went to the popular tab, then got down voted several times before you saw it at 2 votes on the homepage

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@lichme: http://wootstalker.com/questions.php is pretty cool. what method are you using for sorting?

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@shawnmiller: Thank you for responding. I do appreciate that! I also know what I saw...at the time I posted the initial comment, that deal had zero down-votes, 2 up-votes w/i the time frames I mentioned. I copied the link. Double-checked before I mentioned it.

What happened later to that deal, I know not. As I've said, at the time, I was taken aback. It just seemed so absurd. If you're saying this could NOT have happened, then I'll just slink back into the background. With angst.

Please understand, I know what I saw. It might have been a hiccup?? Am aware that happens, too. (Turns head and daintily spits up.)

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@shawnmiller: "I'll see if the team can make sure we index the rest of the really old data next week." I plan to tear through a bunch of those dusty boxes in the attic. Maybe I can find some old deals and questions up there.

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@shrdlu: For the stroll down groaner-jokes memory lane, I thank you.

On a personal note, I officially retired last week. You were right: there are many advantages to such status.

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@josefresno: Do be careful up there, please. Dust, rodent droppings, who knows what else....

Here you go, and they're even Prime eligible: http://snurl.com/26rxs38

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Just dropping in to say that it was nice to see some old familiar faces among the crowd. :)

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@jumbowoot: I see deal stacking is gone on the popular tab, was this intentional?
Example:
I post 3 deals from the same vendor and the users need to unfold the last deal I posted to see the other 2.

It may be gone on the fresh tab too.

For everyone else.
It also seems if a deal does not go popular in 24 hours it is gone forever.

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@caffeine_dude: Not really gone forever so much as not on the Fresh tab. If you voted, or commented, or "subscribed" or were the poster, then you can still see it.

When you say "deal stacking" do you mean the collapsing of deals posted from the same site by the same person? If that's so, then it's just reverted to the previous behavior on the Popular tab. That is to say, when something goes popular, it doesn't take all those other linked items with it. I completely ignored the Top/Current/Whatever it was tabs, so I have no idea whether the behavior was such that it had those collapsing items with it. Collapsible postings are still there on the Fresh tab (which has been the behavior for a very long time). I just looked to verify, and they still collapse on the Fresh tab.

Did you mean something else, and I didn't get the reference, or was that it?

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@jumbowoot: As long as you're reviewing the expired issue, do you think you could revisit the issue of how to treat repostings of old items that may still be the same price?

Sometimes an item is posted that is the regular price, but it's so unusual, or amazing, that the poster wants to share with the community here. Since the price hasn't changed, it doesn't expire, and it would be nice if after, say, a year, they could be expired and reposted, even though the price hasn't changed. I know, I'm dreaming, but still, it would be nice.

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I figure I would jump in here and ask if this issue is still being worked on? As of me posting this comment there are 54 RIP deals in the first 4 pages of the Popular most recent tab. @jumbowoot, @shawnmiller, @josefresno

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Expired deals always showed up in the popular tab before we made the switch to the "top" tab. Now that we're back to the popular tab you're seeing expired deals in their respective spots on the homepage again.

Removing expired deals from the popular tab might be one improvement we keep around from the top tab days, but our original reasoning for keeping expired deals in their place is to give Deals.Woot members the ability to see what they missed out on. If we removed expired deals from the popular tab you'll have no way of knowing there was a ASUS Transformer Pad Infinity 10.1" 32GB for $349.99 + free shipping @ 1saleaday.com earlier today. Or if someone asks you if you saw the great deal for an ASUS tablet on Deals.Woot today you wouldn't find it on the homepage.

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We made a couple of changes recently that make this iteration of the popular tab slightly better than the previous popular tab.
- Increased the number of deals per page from 15 to 30. This is designed to show more deals (active or expired) without the need for frequent pagination.
- Increased the frequency of making deals popular when there are expired deals on the homepage. This is designed to more aggressively move expired deals through the first page of popular deals without the side effect of our Deals.Woot members losing their place in the popular flow.

We've also been talking about ways to visually distinguish expired deals from active deals beyond the RIP icon, possibly presenting them in some sort of collapsed state.

Of course, if those changes don't cut it we could remove deals from the popular tab once they're expired, but we'd like to come up with a solution that doesn't introduce the side effects I mentioned above. We're watching, listening, and discussing over here.

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@shawnmiller: I wouldn't mind seeing them in a collapsed form or some other way a distinguishing them. What about having a timer so that they are removed from the popular page after lets say after 24 hours? Or maybe a separate tab under popular labeled RIP?

I know that this was the way that the Popular tab worked back when I first started it just seems worse, maybe because of me getting used to not having them there because of the Top tab format. I just feel like it is hard to sort through all of the RIP deals when there is so many mixed in with the still good deals without a quick something to let me know that it is expired besides the RIP in the votes section. When I search through the deals I look at the picture or the description of the post. I don't even look at the Vote number unless I am voting on it so I tend to click on these RIP too often.

Thank you for your response.

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@segafanalways: Yep, similar thought process going on here. The RIP icon might not be enough to visually indicate the deal is expired.

@josefresno created a mockup of what a collapsed expired deal would look like but we got stalled because it potentailly conflicts with other improvements we want to make in the future.

One thing you might see us try out is to simply remove the expired deals from the popular tab and measure anecdotally how many "Where'd my deal go?" and "What happened to the ASUS tablet deal?" comments and questions we get.

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How about a simple user selection (checkbox, or filter) of "Don't show me expired deals"? Then just filter the results based on this? Shouldn't mess with any future designs and the visual indication that it is expired... you won't see it.

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I agree with @kmeltzer. Checkbox next to the tabs which says "Show expired deals". Simple Simon.

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@magic cave: @shrdlu: @shawnmiller: Nostalgic deals and questions are back! I am sure @shrdlu will let me know which ones I missed :)

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@josefresno: That's a great start! Many thanks!

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@josefresno: Thank you very much. Dang, from 27 total pages of commented questions to 113. I've been been busy since 2009, you know?

Thank you again.