Knives, knives and more knives
I am bored so I thought I would start a discussion on this since our BOC chat is going off tangent anyway.
What is your favorite KITCHEN knife?
Shun? Henckels? Ginzu - ick hate mine?
Also I have been hearing ALOT about these ceramic blades, what is that alla bout?
by
hobbit
asked 2 years ago
To be honest, I am partial to Cutco knives. I grew up with them and they have always been there for me.
I have some Shun knives that my wife loves! I got them when I was single and when she uses them, she is astounded that she was able to survive with anything else.
I love Master Bladesmith Bob Kramer's story:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OCoS81G2CY
(via/ Sunday Morning on CBS)
Most of mine have been replaced with Victorinox fibrox-handle kitchen knives. I became aware of them from Cooks Illustrated (America's Test Kitchen) reviews where they are almost always competitive with Wusthofs and other highly-regarded knives. Plus they are very affordable.
In fact two I use routinely are the cheapest ones. They cost less than $20 combined...a serrated paring knife and a slightly larger slicer that doubles as a capable steak knife too. Also enjoyable to use are the 8" chef's knife, a smaller chef knife, and a (literally) neat bread knife that generates few crumbs.
The fibrox handles are a grippy plastic which works well with wet hands, and the blades are great at holding their edge.
@sgoman5674: Cutco knives are wonderful! I have also had luck with Anolon brand knives.
So the deals today have made me realize just how little I know about knives in general. We got a not great set from Target as a wedding present and are in serious need of some new cutlery. (My wife threatens me every time we're cooking and has to use our current knives, but I'm not scared, I know how dull/easily breakable they are)
Question is, how much should I expect to have to pay to get a nice set of knives that won't wear out quickly? We aren't looking (or can afford) super top of the line stuff, just above average I guess.
@shadowkhai: A good basic set can be had for under $100. See those on this very handy (not mine btw) list on Amazon for kitchen essentials:
http://www.amazon.com/Quality-kitchen-items-amazon-box/lm/R2CYWO5MX94T44/ref=cm_lmt_srch_f_2_rsrsrs0
My current favorite is a 7" Shun Santoku. (http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0000Y7KPO)
@hobbit: ceramic is crazy-hard so it can take and hold a crazy-sharp edge. The big draw back is that ceramic is brittle and you can easily chip a blade if you bang it around or drop it. Chipped blades = not smooth slicing.
@shadowkhai: Don't buy a SET. Seriously.
I'd bet that any knife-block set you'd be looking at will come with at least 1 or 2 knives that you'll never use. That means you've wasted money.
Put your money into buying a couple of good knives that you'll actually use. Don't worry about having them be the same brand.
Knives are designed to fill certain needs, so if you tell us what you're looking for we can help you select the right types of blades. What do you currently use your knives for most often when you wish you had a better knife? (breads, veggies, raw meat, fish, etc.)
having 2 out of 3 brothers that are professional chefs, and mamawooterson who should have been a chef. we like knives.
Global, Wusthof, Shun,J.A. Henckels, Viking etc... we have them all.
mamawooterson is a huge Global fan.
thegodfather(brother#1) loves Wusthof & Viking
doon(brother#2) is a Shun junkie.
i say find what feels good and use it. :)
@wootiewooterson: Very good advice to make sure that you hold whatever you're considering before buying it. Make sure it's comfortable and feels well-balanced in your hand.
Don't be afraid to go to an expensive shop like Williams-Sonoma or Sur La Table and let someone walk you through how to select a good knife. You can then (often, not always) go home and find that same knife cheaper online.
@shadowkhai: To add to what @anotherhiggins said about knife blocks, you can get theis one from Bed, Bath and Beyond.
http://www.bedbathandbeyond.com/product.asp?SKU=13749337
There are no slots so you don't have to feel bad about only having 3 or 4 knives in it.
I got the farberware knife set for about $90 for my wedding. My wife and I use the majority of the knives in it, but not all.
Don't forget T. J. Maxx and Marshalls as well for knives you just have to make sure you getting the exact thing you looked when visiting William Sonoma and NOT a cheap Chinese import.
@hobbit: Adding to that (the TJ Maxx thing) - pay attention to what model, or line, of knife you're getting.
Henckels, for example, makes some really good & expensive knives but they also make some REALLY crappy cheap knives. And they make lots of knives that are somewhere in the middle.
@sgoman5674: Ha! I used a Kapoosh before mounting my knife magnets on the wall.
I really liked it and wound up buying one for my mom last year.
@shadowkhai: Just to clarify...the kitchen essentials list on Amazon includes four individual knives. Poor choice of the word 'set' on my part.
I'm guessing that you have a block from the wedding present set and can replace the knives to keep the cost down.
@sgoman5674 and @anotherhiggins - Always wondered if the Kapoosh was practical, now I may just need to try one.
@anotherhiggins: I'd like to get magnet strips for my knives. I clears up some counter space. But I also don't have a lot of wall space in my kitchen either. I guess I will have to wait until i move into a bigger apartment.
@afurball: I don't have one. I played around with it in the store and it seems very useful. The inside comes out for cleaning purposes which is one of the reasons why I really want one.
@anotherhiggins: Mostly veggies and raw meat, but I think we'd be more apt to branch out if it didn't take forever to do prep work with dull knives.
@sgoman5674: Thanks, I'll be sure to check the link out.
@afurball: I do have a block from the set, it's about the only thing that's held up at all.
Thanks to everyone for their input, I'll be sure to check all this info out and I welcome any more suggestions.
@shadowkhai: Also, one thing to consider when purchasing knives is if there is a warranty. I believe that Cutco knives come with a lifetime warranty on them. They are a bit pricey, but in the long term they are well worth it.
I have one of those Kapoosh blocks and like it very much. Its surprisingly rugged and a great buy if you have an unconventional set of knives. I use it for the knives my father made for me since I didn't have a place to hang magnetic strips to store my knives.
I've inherited a few cutco knives that I use frequently and have a Wusthof santoku that is absolutely wonderful. Its perfectly weighted for me.
Most of our cutlery is 10-20 years old
Still works fine
They don't make them like they used to
@lifevirusx: Yes they do. Some might argue that knives that are widely available today are even better. They just charge more now.
I expect to be able to use some of my higher-end knives in 20 years.
[offtopic]
@afurball: My first reply was not in response to yours. I started writing before seeing your post.
[/offtopic]
@anotherhiggins: You said you should decide what you need the knives for and then buy accordingly. This is a super dumb question, but: what SHOULD we be using the knives for? I don't cook at all (yet!), so for me the only times I use a sharp knife are for eating steak and cutting bread. What "kind" of knives are appropriate for those tasks (not brands, but species/lengths of knives)? I believe my wife sometimes cuts up raw chicken or steak ... unless we're just buying it pre-cut ... ? In any event, if necessary, what kind of knife would you use for that?
Now that I think about, we also cut up vegetables (I actually help with that, but I'm ridiculously slow).
And don't these fancy knives just get dull after a year or something? And then you have to take them to a special store and pay to get them sharpened up? I'm not keen on that ... (snort). And can you even sharpen a serrated knife?
Instruct me, sensei.
@madartiste: Ahhhh...then I may just have to head over to BB&B and put one of their coupons to use on a Kapoosh. Thanks for the recommendation.
@anotherhiggins: That is good to know, although it didn't trouble me either way because your advice is sound. A packaged set of kitchen knives is much less likely to be all useful-to-you items, even if you find one of decent quality.
And thanks @hobbit for opening up this interesting topic!
Egads... a whole knife thread, and I was waylaid by a day-long test. But now I'm here! As a note I've been burned (deservedly so) for my overenthusiasm while discussing knives, so I'll try to be a little more moderate here.
[1] My favorite knife I won is this one: http://korin.com/Tojiro-DP-Gyutou . It is actually my only Japanese knife! I'm not made of money, but I'm still worth a good knife!
[2] What knives to get? In order of what you should have (starting from scratch): (1) A Chef's knife/Santoku/Gyutou -- this is going to be an all purpose knife, mainly for cutting veggies and boneless meat. (2) A paring knife -- for cutting fruits, peeling ginger, and such.
[3] Wait that's it? Well, those are the main ones. The rest depends on what you do. Cut bone? Get a cleaver. Cut bread? Get a bread knife. Eat lots of steak? Get steak knives.
(con't)
(con't)
[4] Wait, but what kind of knives?
So, for the first grouping (Chef's - Paring) is where you'll like to get the nicer knives. See, if you buy only two, it's much cheaper. As above, the spectrum can range from Shun to Wusthof to what have you.
For the second grouping, well... If you're getting a cleaver, it should be good and hefty. I know @hobbit might cringe when I say this but, the Chinese cleavers tend to be quality (and cheap). For a bread-knife, quality is less important; however, this is the only knife that should be serrated. For steak knives, I think most mid-range knives are good, but the Victorinox are, as expensive as I would recommend. Shun's, imho, are overkill here.
These are actually my dream steak knives (though still too expensive right now):
I do like me some rosewood though.
(con't)
[5] Where to store my knives? I think this was where I got burned last time, so take this only as one crazy person's opinion. For your nice knives, I would avoid knife blocks (which are debatable in how well they treat a knives edge or what they do with moisture). I have no idea about the Kapoosh. Magnetic strips are groovy, but if they're metal coated, they may still ding the edge of your knife. If I had the excess cash (and plethora of knives) I would go for these...
http://benchcrafted.com/ordering.htm
Pretty!
[6] Cutting boards... Wait I think I got burned here. So I'll be brief again: there are pros and cons to plastic and wood (I like wood). However, don't buy glass and don't buy bamboo (I think that's generally agreed upon). If you do buy wood, buy end-grain.
(con't)
[7] Gosh, do you really have more to say? Oh yeah, what about knife care?
For the nice knives (Henckels, Shun, etc.), some care is involved. You'll want to avoid dishwashers for those (yes, they rust -- no, that's not a sign of bad quality). You'll want to hone them on occasion (it's that stick thing you see people use on the knife) and you'll want to sharpen them much less often but every now and then. For sharpening it is recommended you send them out -- but don't let all the naysayers fool you, you can learn to sharpen your own knife (e.g., http://korin.com/Shop/Two-Sided). Practice on crappy knives first though.
Okay, that's all I have to say. Someone else can explain the difference between honing and sharpening and cover the wood v. plastic cutting board debate. ;)
I have to run!
[EDIT] P.S. I'm not a crazy knife-person!
Wow! I was waylaid for most of the day by business, but this is impressive! Lots of good advice on the care and the styles, and brands of knives. I have to throw in my $.02 too...
I have a little bit of culinary training - not a whole lot, but enough to know what works well. My own knives are fairly good. They're not quite the level of some of the Shun sets, but they're a decent, forged set of Henckels (International). My family has usually gone that direction, though I love Shun knives. I just can't afford them, usually :) Woot just wants my money... or Amazon... Whichever...
I have Sabatier, Henkels 5-star, Henkels International, F. Dick, Chicago Cutlery, BergHOFF, Regent Sheffield. Many of my knives are no longer available. I have an all stainless steel Chinese cleaver that is my kitchen hatchet. Some of my early knives were not well balanced. I use a simple diamond hone to maintain sharpness most of the time. The steel is only used to uncurl the edge. I have a Waring Pro knife sharpener, a grinder.
I use a knife block. I turn the cutting edge up.
At work I used a giveaway Victorinox knife. It kept its edge longer than any other knife I had used. Also, I used a Leatherman Wave.
Thanks everyone. My dad, the professional cook, is the worst at giving advice. He says - go find knives that are comfortable.
No No dad I want to know what knives are good!!!!!!!!! Well really what knives are great. I also know that the carving knife he uses is probably about 50 years old, the handle is anyway he may have had the blade replaced, but I know the handle isn't new because I bit on it when I was 2-my tooth marks are still there- and he has had it since cooking school.
I am bad I store my knives in a container on my counter, I was never given a knife block, my smaller knives are in a drawer. Actually the smaller Ginsu knives aren't bad, they just aren't sexy.
@hobbit - in this case, your dad is giving you excellent advice! The best knife is the one you can use safely, comfortably and precisely.
Honing vs. sharpening.
Imagine your super vision allowed you to look down the knife's edge. A newly sharpened knife would appear very thin and very straight. After some use, you'd likely bend that thin edge a little to the left and right. Use your super vision again, and see a thin edge but it's slightly bent and rounded over. If you could straighten the bends out, the knife would be perfect again. So you hone the knife.
Eventually all the cutting & honing will smoosh the thin edge. Super vision would reveal that the edge was wider than when first observed. You can hone it so it is straight; it will still be dull. At this point, spend $5, get it sharpened.
"Great" knives keep their edge longer. You could even get the $20 Farberware set from Target and get them to cut well, but you'll need to sharpen them more often than you would a set of Shun.
@fgarriel: See that was the problem. Dad or anyone for that matter needed to steer me in the direction of a proper brand, for the past five years I have been looking at sets at Target. I was given the knives I own. I don't know knives, I know pots, pans and China. Maybe he thought I knew knives the same way. NOW I know which brands to covet and which to stay away from.
@sgoman5674: true I know fabric, I forget about that.
@sgoman5674: Hone your blade just prior to use, every time. Sharpen them once a year if you use frequently.
In practice, I had a good set. I honed them often, but not every time. I used one of those v-shaped roller-sharpeners every few months. I didn't get them professionally sharpened for 8 years. Now that I did, I'll never go back. I'll sharpen them every father's day ('cuz that's when we did it this year).
So much useful information in here. I think I will start off with the more affordable pieces from the Amazon list @afurball linked earlier and eventually work towards getting some nicer knives as I can afford it.
Thanks again everyone for your assistance.
Good luck @shadowkhai! The Victorinox line is also carried in many kitchen stores-- including those in outlet-mall land--always a good idea 'try them on for size' before purchasing if you have the opportunity.
@sgoman5674: Just as a note, the 'sharpening tool' that comes with a set of knives is used for honing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honing_steel), i.e., keeping the blade straight. This is in spite of the fact that they are usually referred to as 'sharpening steels.' This is the one to use regularly.
That is unless, your knife set came with one of those v-shaped sharpeners (http://www.amazon.com/W%C3%BCsthof-2904-7-W-fcsthof-2-Stage-Sharpener/dp/B0009NMVRI/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=home-garden&qid=1281108215&sr=8-2) or a sharpening stone (http://korin.com/Togiharu-1000-4000-Two-Sided-Stone?sc=7&category=17374). Both of those two actually sharpen. That said, I don't really trust those v-shaped sharpeners (per @fgarriel's experience).
I like my big cleaver which I got from the local asian grocer, Hawaii Supermarket.
it goes chopchop*!!
also, i AM a crazy knife person, and take lots of pride in sharpening my own knives with that cheapo wet stone also getable at the Hawaii Supermarket (on the floor below the lowest shelf). I am coveting one of those 4 sided sharpening stones tho.
It's nothing super fancy, but my favorite knife is the peasant knife sold by Lee Valley: http://www.leevalley.com/US/garden/page.aspx?p=52770&cat=2,40733,40738
It takes and holds an incredible edge, it is fairly inexpensive, and while the handle really looks bulky, it fits my hands very nicely.
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